Originally Posted by Zichao

You're clearly in the perfect position to make a detailed critique of the philosophical points made, then.

Lack of understanding never stopped me before... I understood one sentence and I took exception to it.

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Wearing clothes is intolerant?

Hey, what if I chain you around and use you as my slave? Wearing chains couldn't possibly be intolerant, could it?

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Fine, scratch that one. I've got a gazillion others.

Alright. It's not that I am unsympathetic to the libertarian outlook of things. But there is a real world out there and yelling "Let's burn Jews" at the top of your voice eventually result in bad stuff. Waiting for bad stuff to happen before intervening is one solution but 1- it pre-suppose that, by then, you still have the means to intervene and 2- it runs contrary to the general idea that "prevention is better than cure".

So, basically, because "prevention is better than cure" isn't an absolute either, this stuff remains the domain of "well, we can try and draw lines but it's going to be fuzzy, no matter what..."

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Hey, what if I chain you around and use you as my slave? Wearing chains couldn't possibly be intolerant, could it?

If I'm happy with that state of affairs I don't see what business it is of anyone else.

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Alright. It's not that I am unsympathetic to the libertarian outlook of things. But there is a real world out there and yelling "Let's burn Jews" at the top of your voice eventually result in bad stuff. Waiting for bad stuff to happen before intervening is one solution but 1- it pre-suppose that, by then, you still have the means to intervene and 2- it runs contrary to the general idea that "prevention is better than cure". So, basically, because "prevention is better than cure" isn't an absolute either, this stuff remains the domain of "well, we can try and draw lines but it's going to be fuzzy, no matter what..."

There is no room for Christmas at multi-faith school - Telegraph
CBC News - Toronto - Christmas tree banned from courthouse lobby
Banned T-Shirt Blog - Controversial, Rude & Offensive T-Shirts in the News
Concurring Opinions Reading Book on Break=Racial Harassment?
Variant | issue 6 | In the Eye of the Beholder, John Tozer
Breast-Feeding Controversy: The Fight to Nourish in Public - ABC News

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Originally Posted by Zichao

If I'm happy with that state of affairs I don't see what business it is of anyone else.

And, if you really made that choice independently, then, it's OK - That's BDSM's "informed consent" or RACK/SSC.

If you were raised in chains since childhood? I guess it helps to have your "screw other people, if they want to make it, they should pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Otherwise, well, that's just less competition for me" attitude but some of us have a bit more empathy...

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There is no room for Christmas at multi-faith school - Telegraph CBC News - Toronto - Christmas tree banned from courthouse lobby Banned T-Shirt Blog - Controversial, Rude & Offensive T-Shirts in the News Concurring Opinions Reading Book on Break=Racial Harassment? Variant | issue 6 | In the Eye of the Beholder, John Tozer Breast-Feeding Controversy: The Fight to Nourish in Public - ABC News

And I would probably draw the lines at different places than our existing rulers. For example, I find the frenzy around breast feeding totally nuts. Then again, I am French and 35, so I guess I tend to think that where the French society used to draw the lines is "normal"...

Similarly, I find the banning of a Christmas tree from a courthouse to be excessive, in all honesty. But I would protest the displaying of the 10 commendments in it... Case by Case...

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And, if you really made that choice independently, then, it's OK - That's BDSM's "informed consent" or RACK/SSC. If you were raised in chains since childhood? I guess it helps to have your "screw other people, if they want to make it, they should pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Otherwise, well, that's just less competition for me" attitude but some of us have a bit more empathy...

Seem to have come quite a way from some guy wearing an offensive t-shirt.

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And I would probably draw the lines at different places than our existing rulers. For example, I find the frenzy around breast feeding totally nuts. Then again, I am French and 35, so I guess I tend to think that where the French society used to draw the lines is "normal"... Similarly, I find the banning of a Christmas tree from a courthouse to be excessive, in all honesty. But I would protest the displaying of the 10 commendments in it... Case by Case...

But the point isn't what you find reasonable, it's the development of the idea that tolerance means that people have a right not to be offended.

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Originally Posted by Zichao

Seem to have come quite a way from some guy wearing an offensive t-shirt.

It was a woman and the guard who ejected her got disciplined... And examples from the US are disqualified on the basis that they're all nuts over there. I mean, find me an example where a French citizen is disciplined for reading a book about the war in Algeria in the presence of French of Maghrebi origin...

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But the point isn't what you find reasonable, it's the development of the idea that tolerance means that people have a right not to be offended.

And my own take is that people shouldn't go out of their way to offend others, just as others should tolerate being offended... I know you find the concept vague but "be nice and be polite to each others, like your parents taught you" is about the best thing i can come up with...

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It was a woman and the guard who ejected her got disciplined... And examples from the US are disqualified on the basis that they're all nuts over there. I mean, find me an example where a French citizen is disciplined for reading a book about the war in Algeria in the presence of French of Maghrebi origin...

Well there are a lot more examples: offensive t-shirt ban - Recherche Google Though most of them are in America so apparently social science can safely discard them.

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And my own take is that people shouldn't go out of their way to offend others, just as others should tolerate being offended... I know you find the concept vague but "be nice and be polite to each others, like your parents taught you" is about the best thing i can come up with...

I'll make a note of it.

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Originally Posted by Zichao

Well there are a lot more examples... Though most of them are in America so apparently social science can safely discard them.

You're free to comment on it (and I do get a kick out of studying American trivia) but let's admit it's a highly specific society and, as long as it stays on their side of the pond, the damage to us is pretty limited.

As usual, the UK might be the one most easily corrupted by Americanisms but, as long as Continental Europe remains indifferent to American excesses, I won't panic...

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I'll make a note of it.

Why do I get the impression you're just saying that to mock me?

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You're free to comment on it (and I do get a kick out of studying American trivia) but let's admit it's a highly specific society and, as long as it stays on their side of the pond, the damage to us is pretty limited. As usual, the UK might be the one most easily corrupted by Americanisms but, as long as Continental Europe remains indifferent to American excesses, I won't panic...

Well given that the book is written in English by a Briton... I mean, there are a lot of stories on here that don't involve France at all.

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Why do I get the impression you're just saying that to mock me?

*shrugs* "We should all be nice to each other" is a perfectly valid point of view, but it doesn't really do much to advance the debate.

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Originally Posted by Zichao

I said: “Die, heretic scum,” and pushed him off.

Yes yes. you can mock the divisions that arise in the Left, andf many have, but you can't refute the existence of those divisions. And if you're then asserting that one of these is the "true" left - a point I fastidiously avoided myself - then you're making the same error.

Originally Posted by Zichao

But the point isn't what you find reasonable, it's the development of the idea that tolerance means that people have a right not to be offended.

Easy enough to understand. If you can't understand, or or don't think you can argue, the case for the harm inflicted by racism or other discrimination, you can cloak it under the wooly idea of "causing offence". It's a weak-kneed, half hearted solution that fails tro address many of the real issues, and often goes on to cause harms of its own, but hey, at least you didn't have to act or think like dirty liberal/commie.